Midi Problems

Lega

Hello everybody. I am sending MIDI note events from the LXR to my Nord Modular, the latter plays the notes with endless sustain/release. It's like there is not a MIDI Note OFF command. I think that I got that problem since I installed the latest firmware. Anyone else facing something similar?

macMOE

The LXR only sends Note ON Commands. But  you can send a Note ON with "0" velocity which is actually what a Note OFF is.

fcd72

Note on with Velocity 0 is NOT a Note Off. 

The Synth will play with whatever is programmed. In most cases this wont make a sound as Velocity is mapped 100% to the VCA but there might be other configurations. Depending on the Note Assingnment you may also run out of Voices, as the notes are not released.

See here for details

macMOE

"A Note On message that has a velocity of 0 is considered to actually be a Note Off message, and the respective note is therefore released. "

"A device that recognizes MIDI Note On messages must be able to recognize both a real Note Off as well as a Note On with 0 velocity (as a Note Off). There are many devices that generate real Note Offs, and many other devices that use Note On with 0 velocity as a substitute."

seems like both, Note ON (with velocity "0") and Note OFF, are handled equally on most MIDI gear. 

I'd say we are both correct ^^.

fcd72

I tend to look at Note On with velocity as an Abletonesque sloppy implementation of MIDI ;-)

If i ever do a synth Velocity = 0 will trigger a Voice, and its up to the voice how to handle this. Only a Note Off releases the Voice (if theres no Voice Stealing...)

macMOE

I'm just citing the source you linked. 

and if you ever do a synth it could be incompatible to some sequencers. 

I myself think using velocity "0" as a Note OFF is a convention that simplifies a lot of things. I'm currently sequencing my Ambika with the LXR and i'm happy  that the synth releases the notes when receving a Verlocity "0" message.

fcd72

The other way round is right...

Every Synth must end the note with a NoteOff as defined, the behaviour of NoteOn with Velocity=0 is more a convention and habit rather than standard.

I guess you will find no mentionable MIDI-Sequencer (maybe besides Live....) that doesn't send NoteOffs properly. Using NoteOn with Velocity=0 is just a trick to save you some bytes in transmission and make programming of the running status easier but its not intended by design of the MIDI standard to end a note.

Im pretty shure your Ambika will properly respond to a NoteOff, as well as mine does ;-)

BTW for a DrumDevice im pretty OK with just NoteOns as the main intention historically is triggering some oneShot Samples i guess. 

rudeog

FWIW I fixed this issue in my fork of the firmware, and sent Julian a patch a while ago which hopefully he will incorporate at some point, or do his own fix (I send a NoteOff before the next NoteOn as well as when the pattern stops). Most synths recognize a velocity 0 as a note off (and I think that it may actually be part of the spec), but I think that one might encounter some synths that only recognize NoteOff as note off.

macMOE

I really think its a more a standard than a convention and not at all sloppy. Velocity is defined as a value for how hard a key is pressed. It may be nitpicking, but pressing a key with "0" force means not pressing it at all. I can understand your argumentation and that you want to define what the velocity really controls, but to me it makes sense to release a key when it's not pressed.

But that discussion will turn in circles. One is the correct way the other is the easier way (programming wise). 

But both ways work (most of the time ^^).

rudeog

Not to beat a dead horse, but I found this thread on KVR which seems to explain pretty well why note on with velocity 0 is used as note off:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=291892 (second comment down in the thread)

ceasless

Where is our resident MIDI dude? He piped in on a thread about NRPNs, maybe he could offer some insights here..

There are really no differences (from a programming point of view) between standards and conventions: if some convention is used enough to be called that, you have to support it just as you have to support the 'standard'.

In reality you don't _have_ to support anything, standard, convention, or otherwise. The only litmus test is 'does it behave as expected?', and both official standards and layman conventions contribute to the answering of that question.

Lega

For the record, I tried what you said. I used a Note ON with zero velocity but nothing changed. It looks like it is not recognised as a Note OFF command.

I don't know if it is possible to include a Note OFF command in a future Firmware version but it seems to be the only solution to my problem.

fcd72

Why does nobody listen to me =(( .... not every Synth recognizes Note on with Velocity=0 as an event to switch the Note off (for instance the Prophet VS). Therefore Note Off is the right Message to send for ending a Note as it is the one thats defined by the MIDI Standard, no matter if by agreement or habit for some Synths Note On with Velocity=0 also works. 

What would be more interesting is, are there Synths out there that dont respond to Note Offs and only to Note On with Velocity=0????

macMOE

we're listening to you^^.

I'm gessing there is no synth that doesn't recognize Note Off Messages. That really wouldn't make any sense.

The only use for "Note On velocity=0" as a message to release notes would be in a sequencer in order to slim down traffic. But that means incompatibility with some synths. 

I'm more curious if there are any sequencers that don't send Note Offs? 

fcd72

I saw one, its from some obscure Drum Thing DIY box... if i remember right it was called XLR or LRX or whatever....

macMOE

Heard of it. Always these DIY people, with their unconventional approach to things. 

Use real Note OFFs for your one shot drum machines allready.

ceasless

Are you for real fcd72? Where did you see a firmware version 1.0 posted on this site? Do you get the impression that Julian is anywhere near finished with his plans for the LXR?

There is a lot of evidence in this thread that it is not nearly as 'unconventional' as you are claiming. And from reading up on the topic, it sounds like not supporting Note On = 0 is just as unconventional as not having Note Offs.

There are also zero instances of the developer saying "No Note Offs!" Did anyone even say "Note Offs" are a bad idea?

No, we were just saying that its not as ridiculous to not have Note Offs at this stage as some people are trying to present it here.

(Edit: And I thought macMOE was on the side of reason here )

macMOE

I'm on no side. and i'm especially not the side of reason, nor have i ever been. ^^

There are a lot of misunderstandings in this thread i think.

First of all my last post was meant ironically. 

Secondly (can you even say that?), fcd72 and myself have been following this project from way back and can still remember the ancient times when this machine was a drum synthesizer with built in sequencer which worked almost flawlessly. Then we all started nagging Julian quite a bit to incorporate a lot of features including midi out over different channels etc. This thing wasn't meant to be a full fledged hardware midi sequencer and because of that i won't be sad if it never becomes one.

I think fcd72's wish for real "Note OFFs" on a sequencer comes from a modular way of seeing things. A lot of people ( including me) have the velocity routed to the vca on most synthesizer patches. Therefor it makes sense to us to release a note when recieving a "Note On velocity=0".

But when you don't want that routing it really sucks if you just get a "Note On velocity=0" and not a proper "Note OFF". 

I can totally understand that. I was just not consent with calling it sloppy implementation. 

ceasless

Thanks for clarifying. And point taken regarding how I actually don't know the history of all the other users here and I should not assume anyone is as new here as I am. 

Oh, and hai, I'm new here btw. Please excuse this foot in my mouth, if you would?  =((

You're going to have to work harder if you don't want to fall on the side of reason macMOE!

If it wasn't clear, I was also only trying to voice a rejection of the idea that this is due to sloppy implementation. It looks a lot more like 'incomplete implementation' from where I'm sitting. But then again it never even crossed my mind that we wouldn't be seeing major new MIDI features such as CC sends,etc. Maybe I have my expectations too high in that regard..

fcd72

I think julian knows me good enough to understand (if he remembers me at all after our last Tanneznäpfle Intercepting Event) - and if we dont manage to fear you away someday you will also be a bit more enlighted ceasless, my very young padawan ;-)

Although the Future is hard to see, because its always in motion one thing is fact: in the end LXR will send proper note offs. 

Im fine with it for now as all i trigger with it are oneshot samples from the EMU Procussion, so it doesnt really matter as the Voices are released when the Sample Ends anyways. But some guys here wished for a full fledged Sequencer implementation with Pitch and differend MIDI Channels for each Instrument and this takes time to implement. As much as i like stretching things as far as possible and squeezing the last bits out of the Hardware and understand that you might save an extra box to carry around, the LXR wasnt meant to sequence another Synth.

loderbast

on a related matter:

can anybody name a synth that actually uses note off velocity?. (like vca env release for example) i have never seen it in any modulation matrix or noticed it beeing used.

fcd72

Just checked, as i had the manual here anyways: the MicroWave 1 has Release Velocity. And i bet the ESQ-1 also...